Andrew Hyde lives in Boulder, Colorado and travels frequently.

Committing Location Based Service Suicide

Yesterday I checked in for my last time.  I’m done.  No more BrightKite, FourSquare or Gowalla.  I was an early user on all three of the services, and am quitting cold turkey.

But why? (and why would anyone care…)

Well, why anyone would care can only be pointed to me just being a point of data as a heavy user leaving the services. I was a poweruser.  878 posts on Brightkite, 703 checkins on Foursquare, 54 stamps with Gowalla, and I had enabled geotagging on my twitter account and posted over 2000 messages.

Simply: too much work and risk, too little reward.

All I got were quite a few stalker like experiences grouped with a shift of my thinking about location based services from expression of physical identity to needless ego boost.

One specific interaction really bothered me to look at the benefits of these services.  I had someone look up historical data on my checkins and put themselves in places so they would ‘run into me.’   Once I switched my habits, they did as well (that is when I figured it out).

Their response: ‘well, you put it out there.’

I did.  I opted in to getting stalked.  From a stalkers point of view, this is a goldmine.  Foursquare for example lists the picture and location of recently crowned mayors on their homepage.  Here is a picture of someone, with the address of the place they usually hang out. I find that troubling, especially for someone just wanting to share with friends.

In trade for being at risk of stalkers, you get $1 off your beer.  The tradeoff just doesn’t seem worth it.

I never thought I would advocate for privacy with these services.  There are plenty of crazy folks in the public, enabling them with your name does nothing to add to crazy, you are still at risk, but I can’t help but realize how troubling this data can become when the startups that are hosting the data are motivated to have the most complete data set of the most influential people in the area.  In other words, a private ‘with friends’ model is needed, but startups are not rewarded for keeping privacy, they are rewarded for having the hottest network (most public).

You won’t finding me checking in anymore.

I feel the need to close with a crotchety ‘Get off my lawn.’ 🙂

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Andrew Hyde

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125 responses to “Committing Location Based Service Suicide”

  1. tdhurst Avatar
    tdhurst

    I too am a reformed location-based service user. Not that I was ever stalked, but even the constant checking in became far too tedious.

    And for what, bragging rights? Yeah, that was fun for a month. $1 beer? Please. Happy hour prices are better.

    In reality, I don't care if others care where I am.

  2. naomimimi Avatar
    naomimimi

    never had a smart phone so i've never really checked in. the concept always scared me. anonymity is a precious commodity… something i don't want to give up 🙂

  3. kendall Avatar
    kendall

    good word. I never got into the services by virtue of it was just one more thing to do or be conscious of. But then I started thinking about the stalker implications. Truth be known, I don't want to be THAT known to strangers.

    (I don't miss the iron, though, in posting my user name and web page to my comment:)

  4. Gwen Bell Avatar
    Gwen Bell

    In complete concurrence. Love the folks behind these services, don't think the reward makes the risk worth it. Never registered for FourSquare even though that makes me an odd one out. Good post & reinforces my convictions.

  5. ryanoelke Avatar
    ryanoelke

    I'll admit, when I first started reading your post I was skeptical, but I agree with you. I think I've been in denial of this problem. I've not yet had any stalker problems, but it seems like once it happens, you're screwed unless you pull the digital eject chord. The more well known you are in any community, the more exponentially this problem is likely to happen. One of my friends, a well known artist, had this problem in a big way. He has to be very protective online, and he has a family. Not good.

    It seems a “DUH” that these services should have completely privacy options.

  6. lauraglu Avatar
    lauraglu

    There are a couple people who have requested to be my friend repeatedly on these services, whom not only have I never met (even online), they live in different states. Very frustrating that privacy isn't a higher priority for these guys.

  7. daemonnivas Avatar
    daemonnivas

    Hey,

    You have nailed it right in the head. Location is nice invention but it is just not suitable for social networking for one simple reason: why would I as a user reveal my location? What is the benefit that I as a user have to justify me telling you my exact GPS coordinates?

    If you want, read my blogpost on similar (same?) topic: http://www.nivas.hr/blog/2009/12/29/gowalla-wha…

    Nice to see that more people are starting to see the obvious in location based services.

  8. Ms. Herr / @MsHerr Avatar
    Ms. Herr / @MsHerr

    Friend requests (and acceptance) are not simple on digital networks. It's not so easy as do I know this person (or not), but do I want this person to have access to me. I'm sure we all have “friends” that we know well enough, but whom we rather didn't randomly drop in on us. Whether a geosocial app or a simple “excited or [fill in the blank] meetup at [blank] on Twitter or Facebook, we reveal more about where we can be found. There are both benefits and risks. For me, the benefits, namely of meeting new and interesting people, still outweigh the risks.

    As online social grows, friends increasingly worry that I post too much and open myself to the very dangers you talk about. And while little more than a rationalization for an activity I won't [yet] give up, I tend to think that everything I publish leaves a better digital trail for authorities to follow should something happen to me. Twisted, I know, but true.

  9. michaeljbarber Avatar
    michaeljbarber

    Agree with you. There are definitely some inherent security issues if you decided to participate.

    At the end of the day, it depends on the motivation the user has with using these services. For me, there's no ego-boost or competition. I've discovered a few places and people that I never would without using them. So they provide some value.

    Do they outweigh the potential stalker risks for me? No. However, I'm careful to use them when I'm traveling and my fiance is home alone. You never know the crazies that may be tracking you to know when are or are not at home.

  10. hkoren Avatar
    hkoren

    This is why more private services like Google Latitude are superior. No public broadcasting, only people you designate will know your whereabouts. Then it has a “City-based location only” for those you might not fully trust. Plus it's built into the Google mobile maps apps. No nonsense or games, just location awareness.

  11. Scobleizer Avatar
    Scobleizer

    Interesting, but this is why I like Foursquare better than Gowalla. I can “lie” about where I am. For instance, when I get home I don't check in there, I check in at the nearby Ritz. That lets anyone who knows me that I'm in the neighborhood but doesn't give my exact location.

    I think this is an excellent point, though, and one that needs to be discussed more.

  12. paul merrill Avatar
    paul merrill

    Andrew, unfortunately when you get into the public eye, some people start acting weird toward you. Your exposure as the leader of Ignite Boulder and Techstars (among other things) makes you vulnerable.

    May you enjoy increased peace with that new small measure of anonymity. And may those stalkers stalk EACH OTHER instead of those who do not like being stalked!

  13. tarable Avatar
    tarable

    Is this your way of telling me I shouldn't stalk you anymore?

    And if you ever want to play the real Four square, let me know. I used to be champion in the sixth grade.

  14. Jen Yu Avatar
    Jen Yu

    I'm so sorry Andrew! I didn't realize I was stalking YOU!!! 😉 I promise never to go to THAT COFFEEHOUSE again. kidding!

    That's why I didn't want you to BriteKite from my house when you came over for dinner that time, cause of stalkers 🙂

  15. MarinaMartin Avatar
    MarinaMartin

    I judiciously check-in on Foursquare when I'm somewhere that I don't mind people joining me. I will also say it's nice to be ambiently-aware of where my boyfriend is throughout the day/evening even though we aren't the kind of couple who check-in with one another (and I never want to be that kind of couple!). But this also requires judicious friending; I only accept a Foursquare request if I would *want* you to appear at the bar for a drink when I'm there.

    I have always wanted an app that lets me know where my old high school friends are in proximity to me when I'm visiting their city (namely, NYC). When you're in town for a week and it's hard to schedule time to see everyone, it'd be sweet to notice Dennis is at the Duane Reade on the next block or Sara is at the Starbucks. (The last time I was in NYC I literally did run into Dennis at Duane Reade and Sara at Starbucks, but I can't rely on that kind of serendipitous universe in the long-term.) I'd also like to know if you were in town, Andrew, and I happened to be nearby so I could come say hello… so maybe consider revising your friends' list (if I may be so presumptuous as to assume you would let me see your Seattle check-ins) and checking in more rarely? For me it's less about mayorships and more about enhancing my relationships.

  16. dacort Avatar
    dacort

    This is one of my huge quandaries with Twitter's geo implementation and approach. They are, quite literally, changing the way that people interact online and I don't feel they have done enough to protect us from ourselves. Others, like Foursquare, Facebook, etc, are taking queues from this open perspective and changing the way they do business.

    Ultimately, it benefits them, but it also results in a lack of privacy for the general public because these companies are blinded by the value the being open and have no incentive to protect the consumer.

    That said, I limit my use of the geo-api on Twitter to when I'm out in public and feel it lends some context to the tweet. Similarly on 4sq, I tend to only allow people I've actually met (and would want to meet) to be my friends.

    This won't be the last we see of this type of behavior.

  17. itmightbedave Avatar
    itmightbedave

    It's interesting that none of the comments mention that Brightkite will provide the kind of privacy options you want, Andrew. Assuming privacy is really the only issue for you. Checking in is a lot of work.

    I don't use Brightkite or any other LBS much myself, despite being big on spatial statistics. The thing is, the current check-in model isn't that useful for analysis. The results are limited in generalizability, and are only interesting in aggregate. Geotracks are more interesting en solo and in small groups (for analysis) when sampled at semi-regular intervals.

    The current location model is going to have to change. I think most power users will be having an experience similar to yours before long, Andrew.

  18. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    Brightkite is fantastic about privacy, should have mentioned that.

  19. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    Foursquare shares mayorships against your request… if you have one, everyone that shows up will see your photo and username. You can make these vague, but if you are just playing a game with friends, quite weird.

    The twitter geo implementation scares me the most.

  20. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    I agree that there is some room for innovation and really cool things.

    Love your high school buddy idea!

    And I need to make it back to Seattle!

  21. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    It wasn't you (Yu?) at all!

    Funny we had this conversation so long ago.

  22. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    Four Square tourney at crossfit!!!

  23. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    That made me laugh, I heard an idea about hiring the street peddlers in Boulder to talk to the petitioners, kinda the same concept.

  24. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    I would always check into the park near my house for this reason.

    Funny and random tip about Gowalla: iphone users are the only ones currently adding spots, and internationally, nobody is using their data plans, so all the spots in Europe are free wifi spots (90% on my last trip).

    There is room for great things, but I'm out of the game now.

  25. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    I have not played with Latitude much, will look into the features… interesting.

  26. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    ug, what a nightmare to have to think about that… (said as a single guy, no kids or pets).

    I think more people need to think about the security issues… and how they can be solved while pushing the game forward.

  27. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    Great comment. The one thing that goes against what you said is Foursquare broadcasts your mayorships on their website. Here is the picture and the spot they most check in. Shared to all.

  28. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    Great post!

    I think there are some great and obvious reasons to use it as well, makes seeing your friends 100% easier.

  29. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    I wonder if this is from the way discovery tools are set up… 'see all the people on this service that you are friends with on facebook etc'

    Or you have a stalker network 🙂

  30. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    I never thought I would write this post. Ever. Funny how these things work.

  31. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    That made me laugh 🙂

  32. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    The first week you have a smart phone we will see 500 checkins to make up for lost time

  33. andrewhyde Avatar
    andrewhyde

    It is amazing how it can turn people into check in machines for bragging rights. A fun game for a week, I'm seeing people moving on. A fad? Perhaps, but too addictive.

  34. Lisa Brewster Avatar
    Lisa Brewster

    This also has a surely unintended benefit of making you look like a high roller. =]

  35. tdhurst Avatar
    tdhurst

    It didn't seem to catch on quick enough for me. Might have been nice to get some sort of discount, but most owners are barely discovering the internet, let alone social type technologies.

    Declaring this the year of geo-location apps seems a bit far fetched.

  36. Greg Avatar
    Greg

    So, you treat social networks as marketing tools, by friending anyone and everyone, and then get upset when others do the same? That's like a hooker getting indignant over getting the clap. Yeesh.

  37. maczter Avatar
    maczter

    It's probably because of the discovery tools, as you mention. Happens to me several times a week. Unless you live in my town or are someone I've actually had a conversation with online or F2F, there's not much likelihood I'm going to bother accepting your Foursquare request as I don't care where you go and I see no reason you need to know where I go in realtime, though you're welcome to see the history on my profile.

    I'm not so much concerned about people showing up when I'm eating dinner as I am for the people who somehow think there's no risk in listing their house on Foursquare and then checking in there every night…or not checking in when they're away from home.

    By the way, you haven't really quit until you actually delete your profile. I was still able to find you and see your history. Those stalker types can do the same.

  38. kthread Avatar
    kthread

    Andrew, we've chatted about this before–I think when we had both checked in somewhere and some fans of yours showed up.

    Told you how I was burned with Plazes, and I'll be glad to see more attention paid to how geolocative services are quite different when it comes to privacy.

    Foursquare needs Comptrollers as well as Mayors–

  39. stephanwehner Avatar
    stephanwehner

    Sounds good. I thought those tools were mostly for entertainment.
    If they don't amuse you, there is only the loss of privacy left

    Stephan

  40. maczter Avatar
    maczter

    I beg to differ. What's more social than letting your friends know where you are and that (unstated, but implied) they're welcome to drop in if they're also nearby?

    To date, friends who've shown up some place while I was there have always pinged me by SMS or Twitter DM to see if it was cool if they did so. I have no problem with that and find it part of the attraction. I know lots of people in Austin, but there's no way I'm going to contact them all every single time I head out to see if they'll have any free time later and to let them know they're welcome to drop in at XYZ Cafe and chat if they'd like.

  41. Peter Koht Avatar
    Peter Koht

    If you like location that's just friends based, try Rally

    http://www.rallyapp.com/

    Based in Santa Cruz, from the team that made 12seconds.tv

    I like it, and I'm a reclusive bureaucrat

  42. Mona N. Avatar
    Mona N.

    Dude, I can't believe you were getting stalked. Haha (I know it's not a laughing matter but seriously wtf, losers!) I use Foursquare for all my ridiculous venues. i.e. Star Wars Cantina in Mos Eisley, Tatooine, Seattle. Or like, Erin's Pants in Seattle and LA, Foursquare Abuse Clinic and the Hashtag Butchering Rehab Center. 😉

    Anyway, if Foursquare implements private accounts (or at least privacy settings on their website) reconsider signing up just for conferences. It's pretty useful whilst coordinating. 🙂

  43. Wayne Sutton Avatar
    Wayne Sutton

    Wow!

  44. Duh Avatar
    Duh

    Duh. You just figured it out? You didn't have the foresight to see that coming?

  45. Philip Mikal Avatar
    Philip Mikal

    Privacy is the new sharing.

  46. jimgoldstein Avatar
    jimgoldstein

    This has always been in the back of my mind with social media sited using location based services. I passed on BrightKite when it came out but have been experimenting with FourSquare for a week or so. I suppose how and when you use the likes of FourSquare makes a big difference. I only checkin after I've left and I reference friend's tips as a great way to find new places or try new things. All of this is a nonissue if you're not using FS obsessively. Nonethe less most people frequent the same locations and opening up where you can be found with greater frequency does seem to be a formula for disaster in some rare instances. How much of a risk is too much? Odds are I'm going to settle in on any risk = too much. Unless I'm convince otherwise. There's still time to be convinced even if I turn into a dormant FS user.

  47. Mrs. Micah Avatar
    Mrs. Micah

    I don't have a phone that's really compatible, so I've never tried it, but I can't imagine wanting to. One person I follow on Twitter is always updating his location and it's the creepiest thing. First he's at this store, then that store, then the library, then work…over the day I see him go all over. It's far more information than I want about anyone and it'd make me feel extremely vulnerable to stalkers, friends, everyone. If ppl want to know where I am, they can ask me directly. 🙂

  48. Abraham Williams Avatar
    Abraham Williams

    Just think of all the free time you can spend creating real value now. 🙂

  49. stickfigure Avatar
    stickfigure

    Have you checked out Mobcast? http://www.mobca.st/

    It's not a game and it doesn't share your location with people that aren't (Facebook) friends… it's designed rather as a social tool that you would use specifically when you are going out to meet up with friends.

    The core feature is a map with all your friends on it, updated in realtime. Similar to Latitude, but with a much better UI and deeply integrated into Facebook (for example, privacy controls via standard FB friend lists). It's not the kind of thing that you run all the time, but when you go out on the town it's actually practical and useful.

    (I'm one of the developers)

  50. hansdekraker Avatar
    hansdekraker

    My experience is exactly the same. I think an important point that Robert Scoble makes also takes the authenticity out of it all: allows you to cheat. I became a Super User on Four Square but simply could not be bothered fiddling around on my phone anymore as I went from one place to the other on NYE for example. The other thing that must be boring when others keep finding out that I have coffee at Harrys Espresso Bar twice or three times a day, every day! I certainly do not need to know that people are getting home or go into their office every day. I think Lattitude does a better and more private job, giving me more choice.

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